HSB Literary Club


Wednesday, December 19, 2007
The End of The Hedge of Thorns Discussion

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

Here we are, at the end of this little treasure.
Chapter Nine: Determined To Know and Chapter Ten: The Final Hedge.

A recap of the previous chapters: John's lifelong hedges, his parents, have died. His sister, who has also been a hedge for a large part of his life continues to be an influence, though a reluctant one on John's part. John had recently decided he would step out into another world than he had been raised in and was prevented by the hedge of his parents in their deaths. Now that they are both gone, he has the responsibility of taking care of the debt left and caring for Bell.
His mother had asked that Mrs. Waring be their adviser in financial matters before her death, much to John's dismay. John felt a reverence toward her, but also a conviction in the sin that was growing outside the hedge of his heart. Being pressured by the debt, John had no choice but to receive Mrs. Waring and soon their debt was paid. As we will see, the hedge of a year's time and Mrs. Waring's presence has not been enough to dissuade John from following the path he stumbled upon the day his father interrupted it. His last thought was that he had a new suit of clothes, and he was resolved to execute his long-intentioned plan.
So, where is this spiraling path going to lead him? Has he forgotten the lesson from the hedge so many years ago? If he has, do you think God will set another hedge around him?

John is indeed executing his plan to meet up with William Croft. He puts on his best suit of clothes, plans a two-day holiday and goes down as though it is just a normal Sunday. He "walked down with the intention of asking his sister to accompany him to church, but seeing her 'humble dress' and that Mrs. Waring was ready to go with her, he decides to go on alone into town." And another hedge is hurdled.
"It was a fine morning; the church bells ringing, and everything around me looking cheerful, while my mind was in that state of self-complacency which prepares for the commission of any sin, for God resists the proud, but her giveth grace to the humble."
Who does he run into outside of this hedge but his "good buddy" William Croft? And some women "his father had previously warned him to stay away from." And he goes with them anyway. Another hedge his father taught him about, and he knew about, but just ignored. I was surprised that he said anything to them about church, considering he was so bent on straying from the path in the first place.

It was no surprise to me that they weren't going to church, but were going to drink. And, of course, misery loving company, they got John to drink with them. I don't know if I was surprised he drank with them or not. I suppose not. What happened next, to me, is all a bad dream, in a sort of way. I suppose it reminds me of my own idiotic ways before I met the Lord. Though, I can see God's hand as it were on me even then.
I think it was a blessing that he was so sick. I think, in fact, that he said if he weren't so sick, he would have gone off to find them. Sin knows no boundaries and will not ever be quenched in its desire.
So, to quench this desire, God had to devise the hedge of all hedges and allow a sickness upon John's body that pushed him to the brink of understanding of his sin. And, I think, John welcomed this hedge. I think he finally understood it. Unfortunately, this sickness really never went away and was eventually the cause of his death.

Did you notice that he felt a "false shame" when he was with William and the two women, but when he should have felt the most shame, with Bell and Mrs. Waring, he said "never did they cast a shadow of shameful judgment nor make me feel unworthy of their attention."  This is the true love and conviction of God, being shown through these two people who know the Lord and are serving Him and John humbly.
 
I would have loved to read the version of this book that was written as things actually occurred. I wonder if the desire to leave and go to his own pleasures would have been page after page. I wonder if he felt that his father stepping in on his conversation with William Croft was his father's place of protection, and since it did not deter him, his father's illness and eventually his death would become a hedge. I wonder if he considered them hedges he jumped over to get to this thing, this desire.

What do you think of his determination? I mean, he died a very young man. Many men and women live much longer with much more sin in their lives. This determination caused him grave consequences, just as it cause Bell as a little girl. What a blessing that Bell, though brokenhearted, realized what this story would mean to "children" and had it published. I am so glad this "child" has been blessed to read it. It has put life and its hedges into perspective for me, and I am so very grateful for it.

I only got to read this through a couple of times, and I am sure there is plenty more to add.
If you made it to the end with us, thank you!! I have enjoyed getting to know you Jeannie and Stephanie, Christina (though I know you, I loved to hear your take on the story) and LakeLady.  Sylvia, feel free to jump in wherever!! :)
We will be reading  The Inheritance next. It is a Lamplighter book, and can be purchased through The Old Schoolhouse Store. I will be putting up a post with a Linky to sign again when I introduce the book. We won't plan to start up until after the first of the year!

 1 Peter 3

10For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

 11Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

 12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.


If you have not had time to read or have read and have not commented on The Hedge of Thorns, please feel free to do so. And Join us for our next read, The Inheritance.

Blessings!

Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

Amanda

The Daily Planet


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Thursday, December 20, 2007 - <i>Untitled Comment</i>

Posted by JEANNIE78

Noooooo I dont want this book to end, but alas it did. This was such a fun and exciting thing to join in with you ladies and read such a fine book. I want to thank you all for helping me find my love of reading again. Thank you Thank You.

As I began to read that final chapter I too realized how much my life reflects that of John's. Those many times the Lord being ever so gracious in His Love for Me has protected me from countless self destruction. Although I am past my early 20's and I am about to head into my 30's I praise the Lord for this solemn protection over these past 29 years, even when I don't deserve them. I know my pushing of the boundaries(hedge of thorns) has hurt quite a few people (like Bell) . I too am glad to have read such a book to show the true error of my ways. Thank you ladies for this wonderful read and I am already looking forward to the next book.

OK I went ahead and added a new post about the upcoming book onto my blog, lets see if we cant generate more people and proclaim FREE 2 READ!!

Edited by JEANNIE78 on Dec. 20, 2007 at 1:41 PM

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Friday, December 14, 2007
Discussion on chapters 7-8....

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

Amanda:
It truly amazes me how much I am like John or used to be. I totally understand what he is going through as he struggles to stay in the hedge and not try to break through. You are going to hear me say a lot how I can relate or understand or know what John is going through. The way John is in chapters 7 & 8 is a lot like I was and part of me still is. I am working on that tho.

I really do know the determination that he is having about going and visiting his friend. I really do understand his feeling of having to go and see what the world holds. Obviously we know that whatever John wants, he will push to get it. It is in his sinful nature and it has not been purged out. I think parents can only do so much to help a child at this age. Sometime soon they are going to have to let them go and decide what they will do. Sadly most of the time, as I have found out, the child will choose what they want rather than what is right. I struggled with a similar situation as what John is going through. I pushed all the way through the hedge and was only hanging onto a vine, when God grabbed hold of me and pulled me back through the hedge. I was all cut up as Bell was from the thorns I had pushed through. I am just recently getting those scars healed by Jesus. But I now see how important the hedge of thorns is.

I think God took Father home because he wanted John to see and realize that while he did have his religion in his mind, it wasn’t in his heart, as he said himself.
I think that eventually in everyone’s lives we lose our hedge at some point. I think that it is God’s way of, I wouldn’t really say testing us, but showing us that we are not who we think we are. (If that makes any sense.) I think He does occasionally lift our hedge to see what we will do. Obviously He already knows what we will do, but still all the same I think that He wants us to realize that we sometimes believe and think we would do something, when in actuality it comes down to the situation we will do what we really don’t want to.
I really like how on some of the most important chapters, John gives a very deep insight into the purpose of that chapter. At the end of chapter 6, I really loved this: "Freedom from your earthly parents’ authority brings responsibility, and your steps must be taken with great care and caution. That old serpent, the devil, knows our fleshly weaknesses and will tempt you with various lusts and vain persons." It is all too true that when a child grows up and leaves their parents’ home they think they are free from everything that they were subject too in the home. They have their own life and possessions that it really doesn’t matter what they had to do at home. They can do what they want. That is what I was worried about when they gave John his own apartment. Obviously his father still kept a close eye on him, but still having your own place gives you a sense of ownership and authority. And the devil knows our weakness of having authority in our own lives and he plays on that. I struggle with this a lot. Just turning 18 I had envisioned many things changing since I was an "adult". That was a façade. It doesn’t change when you hit the magical age of 18. It changes when you mature and become that adult you envision yourself as.

Jacque:
See, I didn't see that at all when they gave him the 'apartment'. I can understand that independence is a weakness that he has, because that is when his selfish nature came out before - when he did not have the hedge of his parents' guidance as he walked to and from school each day. It is clear, tho, that no one could take the place of that parental hedge. Not Mrs. Waring, not Bell, and not even his own conscience.

Wow.... "lose our hedge at some point." That is a lot to think about. Not that God ever gives up on us, but I see where God gives us a free will and allows us to see something like that. Perhaps removing the hedge is another hedge in the fact that finding out things about ourselves is ultimately how we learn to trust God. Seeing our own weakness and dependence on God is when we learn to trust him. That does not mean we are not to be independent. I believe we are. I think I heard a term, "independently dependent". God expects us to be who He created us to be and make the right choices of our own free will, but we will always be dependent on Him as God.

We try to teach our children the same independent dependence, don't we? When they are young?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amanda:
Another I can really relate on with him is when he is wishing to follow Bell’s advice, but deep down inside he is only wishing to follow it to please her. He doesn’t want to follow it because it is the right thing, he wants to follow it because he feels guilty about what happened to Bell, and he thinks that if he pleases her it will all get better. I have done that before too. Showed that I wanted to do the right thing because I wanted them to think better of me, but when inside I just wanted to do the opposite. I used to have a big façade that everyone saw. I was two different people. In front of everyone I was the good little Christian girl who knew all the words to the worship songs, memorized my bible verse and did what I was told, but when I was alone, I was totally the opposite. I made everyone think that I was holy and righteous; when in reality I was same as the sinner who did unmentionable things. I wanted to do what was right, but then I didn’t. I wanted people to think the best of me, but really I didn’t care anymore. When I finally got tired of being two different people I decided which one I was. Hopefully you can see that.  : )

Jacque:
I think everyone is two different people. Perhaps not to the extreme of living two different lives, but in the manner that we can never be who we truly want to be, and we are striving to be that person or we are covering up that person. I think John was covering up that person. Amanda, you may have become that person, or even feel like that you were always that person(which I don't believe, knowing you personally in front of people and at home), but no one is perfect, and like John, we all have choices to be consumed by passions or not.

Life is a journey we must all walk with the Lord on the path He has set for each of us. Now, we can deny that path or we can follow it - or we can do a little of both. I think most Believers do a little of both, being imperfect. As we learn and grow, hopefully we will do less denying and more following. John obviously has a few more hedges to run into, over or hurdle, but God will continue to set them in each of our lives, I believe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amanda:
Now, I know that Auntie Christina noticed that there was little mention of John’s mother. It is very true that up until recent couple of decades or so, that the father did almost all of the child training. More specifically with the boys. While we can tell that Bell doesn’t need too much training in her character, the mothers did more of the daughter’s training. Hence we don’t hear a lot of Bell or Mother. It was very nice though to get a better insight into the type of mother and wife she was. I think that is one we can all aspire to be like.

Jacque:
I agree that the fathers did most of the training with boys at the age we enter the story and thereafter, and I think his mother's character showed through in Bell when she kept going back to what John should have done. She was still little enough that she was under her mother's tutelage, and I think she was sweet and innocent enough to see the right and wrong, even when John encouraged her to go into the hedge of thorns.

As a young lady of fourteen, she still is showing her mother's wisdom and gentleness. That is a huge picture to me of what a mother's attitudes and words mean in a child's heart - her spirit. It did tremendously stick out to me the reference to the Proverbs 31 woman (of his mother) when he 'rose up and called her blessed'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amanda:
What do you all think about the "other hedge"?? I can tell that John is not liking it. I wondered if Mrs. Waring would be a bigger part in the story than just his school teacher. I know exactly how John is feeling about having her as a guardian. He thinks he is finally free to fly, only to have to go back to the cage. I know that is not really how it is, but I am sure that is how he felt. He thought he was free from being under a "parental" authority only to find that God had another one for him. I am sure he was thinking that he would finally be able to do what he wanted and fulfill the aspiration he had that were different than what his parents had for him. Thank God that he had brought Mrs. Waring into his life to act as another hedge for him.
John’s statement about Mrs. Waring: "Though I revered her, I felt that it was not pleasant to have such a person always observing my actions, and not considering that there was One ever with me, who is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" is very true among young people I think. I know that when I was in rebellion I used to think that my parents and any other adults that were in charge of me were just there to control me. I figured that if God was watching over me, then they didn’t need to worry about me. Oh how wrong I was. Most adults who are in our lives are there as a protection for us. They keep us from straying too far. Hopefully we will see if John comes to understand this.
Jacque:
I took the comment John made about Mrs. Waring as meaning that he did not want such a strong Believer (like Father) to always be around him, because surely his sin will be found out. It just made me think that John could more easily conceal who he was if someone less knowledgeable of the Bible, less discerning, were there.  He said, "...not considering that there was One ever with me, who is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.", meaning that he was worried about Mrs. W, but had forgotten about God Himself, who not only sees all things, but can discern even his heart. He was so far removed from God in his mind at that point, he forgot Mrs. Waring was nothing compared to God.

"My father, coming up, had interrupted our discourse, but not before I had drawn in a great deal of poison from the conversation of this young man" (p. 58)
And, I think we missed a couple of hedges here. I think his Father's stroke was the next hedge. John had already decided in his heart that he was going to follow this path. His stroke, then his death, when John had no other choice but to stay with his mother and sister - begrudgingly too, were hedges allowed by God. He so wanted to leave and chase this other scheme that he only stayed because of "a merciful God, working on me by the means of ...the shame of not being thought a good son." (p. 59)  Then his Mother died, and again, he wanted to go. Whatever this was, it was something so deep-seated that he himself had to experience it to see for himself. All the Scripture and instruction in the world were not enough to sway him. He knew in his heart that his desires were wrong, or he would not have concealed them from so many for so long. He felt this way when Father was still alive. He could have spoken with him about it. Or his mother. Then, he was so consumed with it, he turned his heart against Mrs. Waring.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amanda:
As we end chapter 8, we still see that John is following his sinful desires and determination. He still plans to go see his friend. He still intends to save money to get the new suit. I am sort of scared to see what scrapes he gets himself into. It really puzzles me that as into his life as his father was, Father did not help break or mold this very strong spirit of determination in John. I wonder why if his father saw this streak, he did not do something about it.

Jacque:
Hmmm. That is a good question. I think. I am at first almost offended that you might accuse him as a parent of not noticing this streak, but then, with the presentation of your question, I begin to wonder myself. He would have had to know there was this determined spirit. I don't think 'determined' is explanatory enough though. I think it was a demanding spirit moreso. I think he is demanding his own way. I think whatever his mother and father planted in his heart to respect them and his elders has kept him from following through completely (and served as a hedge), but that disgust he keeps feeling and his determination seem to be about ready to get him into a heap of trouble.

I know personally, that when I see a particular bent in any of my children toward a weakness or a strength, bells go off, so-to-speak. So, that is a valid question. Of course, having been so inspired at his Father's gentleness when everything happened with Bell, I might assume that Father did all he could, but John is determined to do as he wishes, regardless. Maybe he will speak to that in one of the next 2 chapters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amanda:
Well... those are my thoughts. I can’t wait to see all of yours. Thank you for your participation in the Literary Club.
Happy reading!!


Thank you all. This is a great discussion group!! We are picking out the next book, so we will be letting you know so you can get that ordered if you don't already have it. The next two chapters, 9 and 10, are the last ones. Those and the Remarks.

  Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

 Amanda

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Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

Ok I read through the chapters, I have to admit I am not good at knowing what chapters are what using roman numerals. I found myself quite intreged and looking up the verses in my bible not to really debuke what they had for a verse but because I wanted to know what the rest of the verse was, the whole scripture. I am so drawn to this book that I know I keep repeating myself but I took a pencil last night and for the first time that I can recall I wrote inside this book and said To my Family, because a good book should never be replaced by a television or internet connection. signed it with my name and date I got the book.

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Thursday, December 13, 2007
Great Discussion!

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard


I greatly appreciated these comments on Chapters 5-6. They are not only touching, but deep reflective thought. There has been so much going through my mind as I read this book, I have had to re-read it at least once.

quietcajun
Chapter 4 is like a beautiful sermon.
I marvelled at the use of the terminology... "He interferes for our salvation..."
I was not surprised by the definition of the hedge of thorns as circumstances (even bad) that keep us on the safe path, but I did wonder at the inclusion of "infirmities of their own minds".
Saviour would wear a thorn of crowns for me
I love that: "Beautiful sermon". I also wondered at first about the mental infirmities. I think there were a lot more people in that time who were "infirm in their mind" that he would have had experience with. I do understand how that could keep you from some things.


solodeogloria
How insightful to explain God's plans for us as His "interfering." In my thesaurus, the word listed as a synonym for interfere is intercede....literally, to move or pass between. How awesome to think of God interceding on our behalf by putting up hedges to keep us where we need to be.
I understand completely how John could say that his religion was in his head and not his heart. I've experienced that! It isn't a good place to be, and one that leaves you open to temptation in a big way. That is apparently what is about to happen to John as he starts to feel discontent with where he is and starts comparing himself to others. A wise person who was a mentor to me in my early years of homeschooling used to say, "Comparison is the death of contentment." Very true.
 Wow... intercede. That right there is a beautiful picture. I am just in awe of the whole thread of the protective hedge that runs through this book and John's life. I think now that I know this, I can not only start seeing the hedges in our own lives, but also in retrospect.


JEANNIE78
Oh my goodness I feel the same way in regards to the discussion the father had with John about the Hedge of Thorns the Lord sometimes places those hedges for our protection and to remind us to keep our eye on HIM(the Lord). When I read that list the father talked about I nearly began to cry, so many times I have dealt with and continue to still deal with some of those listed thorns. Since reading this book I have come to realize what treasure it is for me, as I have always been a rebellious person, alot of times feeling like that angel with the halo dipped around my head and one eye open.

I felt the same way, Jeannie. I have been 'about to cry' so many times throughout this book so far. As it seems John is about to again go outside the protection of yet another hedge.... I am sure there will be more time for tears.


srostollan
The picture story that helped us to understand the relevance of the hedge was wonderful. I never thought about the fact that God may build a hedge around us out of the things we may despise the most.
John was "hedged in" by the fact that he was with his father. The conversation that his father had with him to always mind the hedge was possibly an indication that he could see the direction of his son's thoughts. As much as we try to hide our character from others, we usually only trick ourselves. John was playing the man by working with his father, but he still had a lot to learn. It appears to me that his father understood that.
Thank you for the view of John being 'hedged in' as he worked with his father. We also saw where the seed of discontent and desire to live outside the hedge was implanted... then John's father interrupts. That was a hedge. His father continued to be a hedge from then on. I wonder if John realized that, even as he wrote this book.



Off to write up my discussion on chapters 7-8.... Amanda has hers done. I am just adding mine. Thank you for your sweet comments. You all are lovely.

Blessings!

  Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool


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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by totustuus

I got my book!!! YAYAYAYAY!! I thought it would never come...I will get caught up with you all asap. =D

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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - YAHOOOOOOO SYLVIA!!!!

Posted by JacqueDixonSoulRestES

Take your time,as there is A LOT in there!!!

I can't wait to hear what you think about it!

blessings! Mrs. D

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Friday, December 14, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by quietcajun

oh my... did I say my Saviour wore a thorn of crowns... I meant a crown of thorns, of course!!!!

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007
We Are Sorry...

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

 We had no idea that the Homeschool Blog Awards would be so much work. They have taken alot of our computer time and we apologize that we do not have our Hedge of Thorns discussion up yet.
 We will have it up tomorrow for sure. We can't wait to read everyone's take on the chapters 7 & 8. We had some great thoughts last week. Thank you to all who are participating and being so very patient with us!

Blessings!

  Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

 Amanda
 
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

I was figuring much was happening as I kept checking back to see if you had anything. Dont fret for those of us that are faithful to the reading group we will still be here when you guys are done with your other obligations. Just dont get your self too stressed out though!! My kids went and read the whole book....I have been good at resisting that temptation.

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Thursday, December 6, 2007
Vocabulary Chapters 1-6

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

Here are the vocabulary words from chapters 1-6. The definitions are throughout the book at the bottom of the pages. The numbers in paretheses are the page numbers.

(11) parish clerk:

(12) garden wicket:

(13) pious:

(16) piety:

(16) requite:

(17) coveted:

(23) salutary:

(25) the least:

(46) precipice:

(48) roe:

(50) froward:

(53) coppices:

I am going to have them write out these words and see if they can discern the meaning when used in the sentences in the book. Then, we will go over the definiitions, and I will ask them to use the words in their own sentences. We will be using them with all of our children at once, not dividing them up into age groups.

Blessings!
Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

Amanda

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by quietcajun

Should we be posting our thoughts on new chapters today or are a few people still working on it?

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Thursday, December 6, 2007
Discussion The Hedge of Thorns, Chapters 4-6

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

Clearly, leading this discussion is not a piece of cake, as it might seem (I am speaking of my own former opinion). I am really loving this book and all of its intricate facets, but there are so many more things I want to do with it than just have a discussion about it. I want to absorb it and live it and learn from it. I did not get to make up discussion questions as you asked Jeannie, but I know we are tardy in getting up the discussion, so we wanted to get this posted. I am planning to take some of the questions below and make up a page for you though.  Thanks everyone, for your patience!

Blessings, Jacque

Discussion The Hedge of Thorns, Chapters 4-6


(Jacque)    We left our reading with John's father and mother sitting holding poor little Bell and John feeling worse than he ever has, probably in his entire life. He has had to hold the 'fruit' of his sin in his own hand, as Bell lie there, injured and scarred for life. John was so ashamed and scared for her.
The next chapter brings a new morning. It brings John's father's gentle hand taking John to the very spot he so selfishly pushed Bell into the hedge. Walking lovingly with him and talking with him about his sin. As a parent, I admire the loving response he has for his son, in spite of the trauma this 9 year-old has caused by his disobedience. He is only a little boy, but having a ten-year-old, I realize that John knew what he was doing - his disobedience. He just had no thoughts of the consequences.
I am amazed at the gentleness and encouraged at how he reminded John of the WORD and its place in this horrible situation. I loved the example to walk with our children and talk with them, reminding them of God's promises and His mercies and even His salvation. His father told him a very important concept: God had interfered.
(p. 35) Another important concept was that God puts certain hedges of thorns in our lives. He said, "Our heavenly Father, having pity on His poor creatures, and provided for them a means of salvation, disposes their affairs in life in that way which he sees will best work towards the attainment of this blessed purpose, that is, their salvation; He knows the way they ought to go, and He puts, as it were, a hedge on this side and on that side, to keep them on the path of righteousness. Some are hedged in by careful and vigilant paarents, some by strict or hard masters, some by sickness, some by poverty, some by dying friends, some by unkind relations, some by frowns of the world, and some by infirmities of their own minds." (pp. 39-40)
He goes on to say that he could not count half of the ways by which the Father keeps His people from sin. Wow. I am in awe by that thought. Having experienced some of those 'hedges' in my own life, it is an eye-opening spiritual thought that blew away all previous theories that we must prayer these bad circumstances out of our lives. Clearly in this spiritual interpertation his father is telling him that "bad things" that happen are sometimes or most usually a hedge of thorns-God's protective way of keeping us at that point in our lives. It also made me think of Paul's thorn in the flesh. I am not sure of the acurate interpertation how this fits into his thorn in the flesh. It also makes me realize that when I feel helpless in a situation that is all wrong I have to look at it that way. Is it a hedge of thorns? Is it something to pray away or is it something God has intentionally put there to keep me in His path. His father's words of advice were, "Do not ever attempt to break through those hedges God grows, my boy, and you will never feel their thorns."

(Amanda)     I really like the 3 points the Father talks about. I think alot of us don't really realize the hedges that everyone has over them in reference to these that he is speaking of. It is important to remember that tho he was only 9, John really did have a sense of being more mature than his age. These words stuck in his mind for the rest of his life, and he remembered them very well. Just like John, I think we all have times when our immaturity takes over and we do stupid things because we don't use our full vision to see what lays ahead.

"Thorns and snares are in the way of the perverse; he who guards his soul will be far from them." Proverbs 22:5

(Jacque)    What did you envision on the other side of the hedge? In my mind, I had envisioned a long steep drop. It still horrified me to read that that is what was Bell's fate if John had continued on his reckless path. One thing I never thought about why that hedge would be there. I guess it makes sense that it didn't just grow there, someone put it there. what did you make of the story of how it got there? To me, it was sad that those two children lost their lives, but it also served as a sacrifice for those the hedge would protect, also.

(Amanda)    Is what you thought would be on the other side of the hedge what it was? Did you think that it would be a safe thing or a dangerous one? Personally, I figured that it would be a cliff or something to the sort.
Isn't that how it always is? Our hedges of thorns may be a troublesome thing for a "season", but eventually they will turn out to be just what we need. In John's instance, his hedge would give him coolness in the summer and protection from the rain.
I think God allows some mistakes to leave scars that we have to look upon daily as a constant reminder of a specific lesson that He wants us to remember. Something that, maybe, we will continue to struggle with.

(Jacque)    On another note, His father also added about the hedges that, ' "Moreover my son," he added, "when the summer comes, the hedges, if you walk by their side, will afford you a refreshing shelter from the heat of the sun; although they now look so brown and withered, they may then blossom with fragrant hawthorn, and honeysuckle and wild roses." ' (p. 51) This picture that his father painted of the safety and aromatic nature of these prickly, hated thorn bushes is not what we picture in our own lives either, when storms come our way that we view as negative. It shows that their is beauty and comfort in the ugliness.

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly."  Psalm 1:1

(Amanda)    Do you think that maybe they are giving John to much freedom as a 15 year old?? Obviously times were different back then, and he seems to be a good boy, but there is still that spirit of" I am going to get through these thorns" and I don't understand why his parents can't see that. His father is very much in his life, but I can tell that there are to be many more instances like the breaking through of the hedge that is very soon going to happen in John's life. Sensing his demeanor of independecy, I think giving the kid his own "apartment" was not the right thing to do. Most children stray from the path which they have been set on for personal desires, and we must make sure that they are fully on the path before we let them on their own.

(Jacque)    I think it is a delicate discernment for John's father to give him responsibility and also keep an eye on his heart. Note that John "left school and went out to work with my father,"(p. 52) so, John's father is training John and spending a lot of time getting to know him. He can only teach him what he must, the rest is up to John to live by.

John said his father "had taught me to admire everything that is lovely in the works of God"... and entering John's apartment (room), "his eyes brightened with pleasure," (p.53) but, upon seeing all of the comforts John had afforded himself and the view he set his heart toward, his father aslo cautioned him, "My dear son, the Lord has afforded you many comfotable blessings. Enjoy them and give thanks, but never forget the lessons of the hedge of thorns, and all I said to you upon that subject." He goes on to tell his how sweet it is that his children are walking within God's providence, and then instructs him of his future happiness, to "sanctify it to God; seek to do His whole will in it." (pp.54-55)

It is little surprise that the cares of the world have again tempted John. Is it his youthful impetuousness that keeps him desiring things outside of his own world? He admitted that his religioous learning was "yet rather in my head than in my heart." (p. 53) Do you feel that his schooling and getting to know others in his class had anything to do with these desires? Seeing what others had, listening to their dreams and desires, did that shape him ? I remember that he said of his Governess and the other children in his class, "She knew the corruption of children, and set her whole heart, with God's help, to do what she could to overcome it; but her pupils, not having the same views as their faithful teacher, of course thought her too strict. They could not feel the necessity of the restraint under which they were frequently laid, and they naturally revolted at it." (p.23) As a homeschool mom, can you relate to this? I do. As a mom who is concerned with shaping character, I completely understand this. What bothers me is that these are the children with whom John and Bell are spending almost their entire days.

Interestingly enough, on page 56, John closes Chapter 6 by saying, "These words of my father fixed themselves, by God's blessing, in my memory, but did not yet reach my heart; and for this reason, I had formed plans of happiness quite different from those which he had pointed out to me."
He says that at this point "he was impatient with the gentle control his parents exercised over him," which means that we will be seeing further lessons for John in God's protective hedges.

Blessings!
Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

Amanda


DISCUSSION: NOTE: Please feel free to post your discussion here in the comments section. Post it on your blog too, by all means, but it will be easier to discuss it right here on this blog.  The discussion will be great in the comments section.

 


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Thursday, December 6, 2007 - My discussion of chapter 4 and 5

Posted by srostollan

In reading chapters 4 and 5, I could not imagine the restraint the author's father showed. Father and son walked out to the hedge all the while discussing the beauty of God's work in each of our lives. You can see very plainly that regardless of how distraught he may be, the father sees that what happened was allowed by God to better his son. Could I be so full of compassion and mercy to see that? I would like to say yes, but I know deep down, I could not be.

I loved how the father took the time to explain things and then allowed John to experience understanding. So many times we tell our children things and then try to make them understand, instead of allowing experience to teach them. He showed such patience in waiting on his son's understanding. You could feel that he realized the gravity of this lesson.

The picture story that helped us to understand the relevance of the hedge was wonderful. I never thought about the fact that God may build a hedge around us out of the things we may despise the most. I always used to say, "God did not make me rich because He knew I could not handle it." I am probably more right than I ever thought!

There was so much in these two chapters. My Oldest and I read it separately and then discussed it. I enjoyed that. We really delved into the analogy of the thorns on the rose. Thinking of the thorns as a blessing to the rose was something that never occurred to either of us.

I read chapter 6 today. I have not had a lot of time to ponder it, but in reading your discussion, it made me think of something. John was "hedged in" by the fact that he was with his father. The conversation that his father had with him to always mind the hedge was possibly an indication that he could see the direction of his son's thoughts. As much as we try to hide our character from others, we usually only trick ourselves. John was playing the man by working with his father, but he still had a lot to learn. It appears to me that his father understood that.

Okay, I will stop adding and see what else I find in Chapter 7!!

Stephanie@inspired

Edited by srostollan on Dec. 6, 2007 at 5:10 PM

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by quietcajun

Chapter 4 is like a beautiful sermon. When I read it out loud to my children I read it slowly and carefully and even re-read some passages. Then, we stopped to discuss several points. I didn't want them to miss a thing and yet I sensed they did not fully grasp it just as John, by his own admission, did not fully understand everything his father was saying to him at the time.

I marvelled at the use of the terminology... "He interferes for our salvation..."

The word interferes caught my attention. God interferes in our lives to gain our hearts. Would that He would catch me in any wrong doing and interfere in my life each day, so that I WILL realize when I am in that proverbial "burning building"!

I was glad that it was clarified that we cannot be saved by anything external... whether the circumstances around us or the works of our own hands, but that those externals can effect us to our very core... even to the point of chosing salvation or denying Christ.

"... every little outward event and circumstance of a man's life is ordered by God for his good, as seen in the cases of those who humbly sumit themselves to the will of their heavenly Father..."

This is JUST what God has been speaking to my heart over and over and over. It was just another confirmation of this truth to me.

I was not surprised by the definition of the hedge of thorns as circumstances (even bad) that keep us on the safe path, but I did wonder at the inclusion of "infirmities of their own minds". I suppose this could be interpreted many ways, but it made me think of the battlefield of the mind.... oh how well I know of it!

In Chapter 7 it did surprise me that the source of John's temptation (or at least what caused a stumblingblock for him) occured in the church meeting. But then again, that really should not have surprised me as it has been my own experience to begin to covet others possessions and positions in my own pew. Anywhere our mind is, the battle can easily ensue!

I was glad there was finally some mention of John's mother's virtues in this chapter. He had been largely silent where she was concerned up until this point. It actually bothered me a bit until I remembered that I have heard/read that up until more recent history fathers did the bulk of the child training. And John's mother was not, as he put it, "learned", but she was supportive, prayerful, wise, faithful, obedient and tender to the things of the Lord. She was apparently "revered" by those who knew her and what a tragedy for John and Bell to lose both of their parents in such short order. This "thorn" both kept him on the path and gave him cause to struggle against the thorns once more.

(Even though he was already struggling before this, sometimes difficulties resurrect our own darknesses that we have not fully surrendered unto God.)

When I read this to my children the four of us (the little ones were not home at the time, but I plan to read this to them later) all began to discuss our thorns and we began to weep.

I asked their forgiveness for some of my word choices and attitudes towards them when I am frustrated and they, too, admitted some of their struggles and we all talked about the need to uplift and encourage one another to stay on the path and to trust God in adversity.

If my Saviour would wear a thorn of crowns for me, than how can I possibly fail to see that a hedge of thorns may well be for my benefit just as the thorn in Paul's side kept him humble and reliant upon God.
But may we also be leary of the thorn that would choke the seed of the word of the gospel. Let us accept the thorns as a guard rail and let us not press into said thorns in lust for what may lie beyond.



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Friday, December 7, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by solodeogloria

In chapter 4, I'm immediately impressed with Father's actions and demeanor. Though the author doesn't say so, I feel that he must have been praying, asking God for the right words to say to his son. Both father and son are obviously broken-hearted over what has happened to sweet little Bell, and I believe this common ground of brokeness is what sets the stage for Father's spirit filled-words of wisdom.


I'm awed by the apparent calmness and certain deliberateness with which Father silently leads John to the 'scene of the sin.' He knows what has to be taught, and he gently delivers the message - making sure that he doesn't go on until,"...he had made me (John) understand so far." (Oh, that I would have Father's gentleness, wisdom, patience...and grace....to stay with the teachings each step of the way until my young ones completely understand.)


How insightful to explain God's plans for us as His "interfering." In my thesaurus, the word listed as a synonym for interfere is intercede....literally, to move or pass between. How awesome to think of God interceding on our behalf by putting up hedges to keep us where we need to be.


I liked, too, how John's Father pointed out the positive side of have the hedge - how it would provide shade and sweet blossoms in the summer. That made me think about how we often refer to our Christian walk as being on a narrow path and how that is sometimes seen as a negative. Yet really, that narrow path is a pleasant path when we stay on it as we should. We have the benefits of His protection and His blessings along the way - and those are much more rewarding that any sin off of the path could ever be.


I understand completely how John could say that his religion was in his head and not his heart. I've experienced that! It isn't a good place to be, and one that leaves you open to temptation in a big way. That is apparently what is about to happen to John as he starts to feel discontent with where he is and starts comparing himself to others. A wise person who was a mentor to me in my early years of homeschooling used to say, "Comparison is the death of contentment." Very true.


In chapter 7, John's "heavenly hedge" is taken away. From the 'prodigal' thoughts that John has already had running around in his head, it's obvious that he's about to get into some sort of sin. I have an idea what thorny hedges the Lord may put up for him when that happens, but I'll have to keep reading! :-)

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Friday, December 7, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

Oh my goodness I feel the same way in regards to the discussion the father had with John about the Hedge of Thorns the Lord sometimes places those hedges for our protection and to remind us to keep our eye on HIM(the Lord). When I read that list the father talked about I nearly began to cry, so many times I have dealt with and continue to still deal with some of those listed thorns. Since reading this book I have come to realize what treasure it is for me, as I have always been a rebellious person, alot of times feeling like that angel with the halo dipped around my head and one eye open. My children have thoroughly enjoyed this book as well, and make it insistant that it be their literature book for now instead of the Mary Poppins series we are reading through.

I also began to weep internally for the story the father was telling John in regards to the young two children who lost their lives due to going outside the boundaries of the hedge in order to rescue the deer, although I think in more of my own hindsight, curiosity is what truly killed them, I dont think they really had intention of trying to save the deer as they must have known of some danger about the hedge.

Again this book is wonderful and I look forward to now joining in on any future book read the HSB LC has to offfer.

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Sunday, December 16, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by totustuus

Okay, yeah...I am really late, but I'll post here anyway. ;-) This was definitely my favorite part of the book altogether. It was a moving moment when the father showed John what was on the other sides of the hedges. The analogy is so powerful. We don't know what's beyond our "hedges". The consequences of our sins are rarely clear to us when we're being tempted. That's why we can't rely on our knowledge of the consequences to make our decisions. We simply have to OBEY God to be protected from falling into the precipice. Our judgement is never good enough. It's our obedience that will save us from that danger.

John's discussion with his father was awesome. As I read it, my sister was on the other side of the room and I told her that she had to read the book!!!

I'm glad I was able to get the book--finally. =D I have definitely enjoyed it.

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Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Still Reading Chapters 4-5

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

When I said, "I guess with all of the Thanksgiving celebrations, we didn't get much discussion done here last week," I totally was being understanding and including myself in that. I still want to comment on Amanda's post as well as Jeannie's and Stephanie's. This has been an extraordinarily busy week, which is weird for us. That said, I will answer your question Stephanie. I was going to leave this all in a comment, but it got too long ( as I tend to do... lol), so I am posting it for everyone.

Stephanie - We did set it up so that we are doing a Discussion every week, and I chose Wednesdays. Of course, I chose that 3 weeks before Thanksgiving, and then we didn't start until last week, so it fell in a bad week for Wednesday. Have you read the next 2-3 chapters yet?

Amanda and I posted each our own post last week because we were in two different locations, and that worked out best. We weren't sure we would continue to do that, but we will just plan to post our discussion, and then everyone can join in as you can, ok? Do not feel you must discuss it on the exact day. We will just "open it up for discussion" with our post. Take this as far as you like on your individual blogs. Post it or not. You can discuss any of these chapters as you can, your comments will just be more read if you do it in the week we are reading it - but your discussion is welcome as you read it.

If anyone has an objection to doing just 2 chapters a week, please comment so we can include your input. I know many discussion groups read an entire book and then discuss it. We are just looking for some input on the subject! If it works with your present schedule, let us know that too. We know we can't please everyone. We are the moderators, but this is everyone's Literary Club. Stephanie and Jeannie seemed to think that reading 2 chapters may fit this season better for them.

Right now, I know Sylvia will be joining us when she gets her book and also Becca. I know Christina has read the first three chapters... did you go on, Christina?? You told me you were in tears... I am sure everyone would love to hear about it. :) Those of you who already had the book, have you gotten a chance to read over it or was last week just too busy? Marshie - How you doing? Did you get to read over the chapters?
We would love to hear from you all!


Blessings!

Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool


Amanda

DISCUSSION: NOTE: Please feel free to post your discussion here in the comments section. Post it on your blog too, by all means, but it will be easier to discuss it right here on this blog.  The discussion will be great in the comments section! We are not sure if we will continue to do 2 different posts, it just worked out better this way this time, but please post your discussion on either.  Thanks!

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Friday, November 30, 2007 - Hedge of Thorns: Chapters 1-3

Posted by quietcajun


When this little book arrived in the mail I was surprised by the small size of it, but was thrilled at the vintage look and feel of it and to top it off I had a brand new ribbon bookmark that I was dying to use!

I snuggled down to read it while I was with my children at our weekly trip to the public library. I was actually a few minutes late picking my oldest daughter up from choir practice because I could not put the book down. From the very first pages I was mesmerized by the beautiful scene the author was painting in my mind both the physical scene and the emotional scene.

I could just picture John¡¦s father presenting his new baby sister to him! What a sweet image! John¡¦s love for Bell is beautiful and is much like the relationship that my children share (for the most part, at least!) I loved how John was anxiously awaiting the time when Bell would be old enough to play with him! How precious!

As I read on I was amazed by the powerful intensity packed into this tiny, little book! I started to weep as I read. Now remember, I was at the public library, with tears running down my cheeks. I glanced around. Nobody saw, I think! ļ

I couldn¡¦t wait to read it to my children. I read it to my three oldest and wept as I read. They sat listening with eyes wide. Two of them even began to tear up with me. They are used to my being moved to tears while reading and usually do not cry along, but this one gripped them the same way it had gripped me.

We read through the study questions and all three children admitted to identifying with John. One child didn¡¦t feel comfortable enough to share an area of temptation, but did speak slowly and purposefully as we continued our discussion.

I found myself thinking about this little book over the next few days. I have not yet found time to read chapters 4 and 5 (maybe tonight). I am very anxious to read on. I fear that John has not yet fully learned his lesson. ( Its too early in the book!)


Edited by quietcajun on Nov. 30, 2007 at 9:21 PM

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Saturday, December 1, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

Ok are we to just discuss chapters 4-5 now on our own or will I need to wait for questions to be posted or are we waiting until a majority of the folks get their books and catch up to the questions posted for chapters 1-3?

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Monday, December 3, 2007 - Jeannie

Posted by JacqueDixonSoulRestES

I am in a bit of a quandry about others who have signed up to join in. I hope those who were waiting on their books have them soon, if not already. We are going to put everyone's email addresses into the Manager and send post updates for each new post.
Amanda and I are just going to go ahead and post our reviews each Wednesday. I think we will go ahead and stick with the next chapters as 4-7, since they are not long at all. I am going to get the questions posted, but they are not necessarily the discussion questions. I mainly made those up for any family discussion anyone wanted to have. I made them up for myself personally, but wanted to share them.
So, let's plan on one post this Wednesday on chapters 4-7, and everyone can comment on what they think. If you want to post on your blog, that's great... let's start leaving our links in the Discussion comments section. Include anything in the comment you want to add to the discussion as well as your link to your review.
I am still loving this little Treasure. Exactly what I thought was on the other side of one of the hedges *was* on the other side of one. Scary.
blessings~
J

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - My Review...

Posted by srostollan

I did not realize until just now that I was suppose to read to chapter 7. Here is a link to my review of chapters 4 and 5.

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/inspired/439410/

These were very full chapters! I will read chapters 6 and 7 and get a post put up about those!

Stephanie@inspired

Was I suppose to give you the link to my post or copy it into here?? I will get this yet!!

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

I am really loving this book and so are my kids, in fact they want to read it instead of their normal literature books(MaryPoppins series).lol Who would have thought!

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Thursday, December 6, 2007 - Yes -

Posted by hsbliteraryclub

There are so many facets to this wonderful little book! Thank you for your faithfulness in reading and discussion!
I had so much to say about chapters 4,5,and 6 that I stopped and did not do chapter 7. So, you are off the hook! You can save chapter 7 for next Wednesday!

I would like some of your post on the HSB LitClub site though. You can put the whole post in your comment or you can read what we had to say on our discussion and discuss what we talked about. It is up to you! I do want everyone else to be able to read what you thought here on the LitClub site though.
If your daughter has anything to say, you can include that too. I love Amanda's different perspective. She brought up some things that I had not looked at the way she did. Isn't is fun to do this and include our children?
blessings~
Jacque

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007
Amanda's Discussion on The Hedges of Thorns Chapters 1-3

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

 

I am all about first impressions and when I first picked up this book and read a few chapters, I was bored. I am not one for scenery and I really thought this book would not be too exciting or interesting. Ask Mom… Well I have learned it is not always the best thing to look at first impressions. After reading the first chapter, I was interested.

It was nice that he described his surroundings. That way we could get a picture of what his life was like.

I really loved the way he shared his love for his sister. I think that the way his father brought her to him, like she was a little precious present to be had.  I had always wished I had an older brother. Girls have a need to be loved and protected and I think big brothers really help in that.

One thing that really was amazing to me was that his father sold one of their cows for a bible. I was surprised that he didn’t already have one, him being a laypastor. 

I was not impressed with was the fact that his father was a minister and he didn’t teach him most of his Bible learning. I love it tho that he did get John and Bell together each nite and teach them about the Word, but that was only after they had met Mrs. Waring.

From reading just the first three chapters I get the feeling that the title of this book is going to be shown to be something that we don’t really think about when we think of “hedge of thorns”.

I agree with what Mom said about them going to school. If they had never been going to school, then they would have never gone past the hedge and thus saved themselves from much pain. It is a bittersweet situation. Yes, they should be educated, but at what price?? Obviously, his desire to get over the hedge exceeded his desire to go to school and learn.

Now about the hedge… when he described the hedge of parents, did you get a visual on that?? I did. My first thought or what I pictured was of me walking down a lane and above me my parents leaning towards each other from each side making a “hedge” about me. You may not be able to picture that, but I can see it very clearly in my mind’s eye.

John really got the point of what parents are on earth for. They are our hedge sent from heaven to keep us on the right path and guide on it.

John really played on Bell’s love for him. He knew that she would probably do anything he told her. He betrayed her. She trusted him to keep her safe and secure and show her the right way and he didn’t.

Something I have learned as the oldest in a family is that being the oldest you set the tone most of the time for your sibling’s attitude and disobedience or obedience. It is a very hard job to be the oldest. You have to watch yourself in everything you do and say.

Now, I know that Bell is probably only about 5 or 6, maybe, but if I had been her I would have just run home and gotten away from John. She obviously knew that they were not supposed to get through the hedge with what had happened with Mrs. Waring.

And again, like Mom said… why did he feel so strongly that he needed to get through the hedge?? Why was it so important that he get through??

When he was describing the hedge and what was on the other side, I did not get the feeling that it was something he coveted. I just felt that it was something he was curious about. I wonder what turned it into something that he just HAD to get through. Had someone told him something?? I mean, you don’t just want something that bad over nite.

What do you think of his having cut through the hedge?? When did he do that?? Was it before or after Mrs. Waring had already told him not to mess with the hedge?? How far do you think he had cut into it??  And can you imagine little Bell having to climb into the hedge?? It was probably at least 9 feet deep.

What really struck me was that John pushed her through when she wouldn’t go. He actually pushed her into the thorns that stabbed her face. He shoved her into them.

Obviously his love for finding out what was on the other side of the hedge was stronger than his love and caring for Bell. What did you think would happen when he pushed her?? Did you think she would fall all the way through??

That must have really been hard when he realized that when he pushed her that she stopped moving. I wonder what was going through his mind when he realized what he had done. Was he inwardly smacking himself for being so selfish as little Bell didn’t move??

I can’t imagine what was going through his head when he pulled her out. Not knowing if she was alive or dead. What would you have done when you saw Bell’s face like it was?? Would you have left it or pulled the thorns out and tried to stop the bleeding?? I would have.

So Bell is severely injured and he picks her up and carries her the 2 mile stretch to his house. Can you imagine carrying a little 5 year old as a 10 year old 2 mi?? That would be hard work.

Now, from reading this book, you don’t get a very deep picture of John’s mother. So being a mom, what would have been going through your mind when you see your son carrying your limp daughter’s body, screaming?? I would probably be freaking out. Running out to them, screaming, scared to death.

So John walks to the house by himself probably in the depths of despair, kicking himself for doing that to Bell.

John seems like the kinda of boy that would be willing and eager for his punishment. So how do you think not being punished made him feel?? Being the oldest I can totally understand what he is feeling. He is being made to watch his sister suffer for his disobedience and selfishness. I have gone through that before and it is NOT the best thing. It tears at you, you wish you could go back in time and redo what you did.

Then when his father comes home and he is waiting for the tongue lashing and it never comes because his father is too heartbroken over what happened. That is really something. Obviously his father knew that it would be more beneficial for John have to wait and see him mourn over his daughter than to admonish John for his sins.

Well… these are my thoughts on the book. What do you think happens next?? I stopped myself from reading further because I didn't want to get too far ahead... haha. I would probably read the whole book in one sitting.

Amanda
The Daily Planet

 Sign up for the discussion of The Hedge of Thorns. You will be glad you did!

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DISCUSSION: Chapters 4-7: We will be reading chapters 4- 7 and discussing it next Wednesday. You may read it as you wish, but please don't include it in your discussion this week; I hate spoilers! :)

DISCUSSION: NOTE: Please feel free to post your discussion here in the comments section. Post it on your blog too, by all means, but it will be easier to discuss it right here on this blog. I will be getting a Mr. Linky for you to link any other posts or projects you may do, but the discussion will be great in the comments section! I am not sure if Amanda and I will continue to do 2 different posts, itjust worked out better this way this time, but please post your discussion on either.  Thanks!

Happy Thanksgiving!

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - My Discussion

Posted by srostollan

I wasn't sure where to put it, but my discussion is on my blog.

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/inspired/431576/

Happy Thanksgiving!
Stephanie@inspired

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I am grabbing Stephanie's discussion. Thank you Stephanie. We all see the same things with such different insight. Thank you for yours! -J

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Here is Stephanie's discussion:
I realized that today was discussion day for the HSB Literary Club. I have a few moments in the midst of Thanksgiving preparations to share my thoughts about the book.

I was going to read the story with the whole family and then remember some of what I had previously read. I felt that it would be too heavy for my younger ones. So Monday night I read it with my oldest.

I am touched throughout the reading at the humility of John Carrol. He is so grateful for the love and training he received from his parents. You can feel the depth of emotion the memories of his childhood evoke. Little Bell is truly a gift he cherished. I loved the visual that the words gave me. I could feel and appreciate the description of the life he was living.

I questioned the absolute brokenness he felt at not being able to see through the hedge. The longing that he had to see what was on the other side. He was so focused on his goal that he developed a deviousness that was unrecognizable. I relate that to struggles with sin that I have had in the past. The end goal became more important than anything. And then to bring someone along with me made the sin easier to accomplish. Not the act of doing in, but the justification of it.

I was gripped by the agony he faced after committing the sin. Having been there, I could feel the pit in my stomach of realizing there was no turning back. What was done, could not be undone. The utter hopelessness hit a little close to home.

I have chosen to be honorable and not read any further until instructed to. My is that a hard thing. This would not have been my choice to stop here.



Edited by hsbliteraryclub on Nov. 22, 2007 at 3:18 AM

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 - Dear Stephanie~

Posted by JacqueDixonSoulRestES

I hope you don't mind my pasting your discussion on here.
I think we had a lot of the same feelings as we read this. I like the way you said, "I could feel the pit in my stomach of realizing there was no turning back. What was done, could not be undone." That is the feeling I was trying to describe in my post too. I felt it too... as a memory of, "Oh Lord, what have I done? If only I could turn back the time..."
But, we cannot.

As Amanda and I were writing out our discussions, I think we came to the conclusion that we could have just discussed each chapter separately because they are each so full. Of course, that would have been a little silly, so I had to break it somewhere. I guess I have seen too many cliffhangers. Sorry if it bothered you too terribly much. I totally understand. I think my children said, "Is that all?" But we had so-o much to discuss, so we stopped. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
Have a great Thanksgiving!!
blessings, J

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

1:Although after given some hint at to what the book was about through research and what not, I found that YES the title very much as to do with the writing of the book. I looked at it in very much a Spiritual sense of ones walk, I think His life and very much my own life could be called The Hedge of Thorns, is it not the Lord that tells us to walk along a narrow path, wouldnt then be considered that what could be on the outside of that narrow path a hedge of thorns to which we would not want to be poked by if we dare(gasp) decide to go "off roading".

2: The first picture that came to my mind was an old english town, probably set some where in a valley. I could totally envision the flowers and the smells and the look of the home he grew up in. I believe he did a fairly good job of describing his home life.

3: I think in my mind he had a somewhat prodigal child relationship with his parents, it became clear for me when he would describe the way his parents tried to raise him,"I was brought up; and every means were used." I am guessing he was saying that because from the get go he was quit the strong willed child.

4: I think the relationship between the Author and his sister is very much a beloved one, in that they are extremely close. I believe they are best of friends, and I dont mean that in any way but a true compliment, because I see my own two children are the exact same way( they are almost 5 years apart). From the time my son was born, my daughter and him have been inseperable.Unfortunatly I cant say that in regards to my own 4 other siblings that I have. :(

5:I found John's father to be one of great importance, he was a hard worker that obviously found the WORD of God to be important, I was very moved (as well as my 2 children) to see him do what was necessary to obtain a Bible. Now I know there have been thoughts out there as far as why didnt he have a bible already....I am sure there were many reasons, back then Normally either the very wealthy owned one or just the Father/Priest had the only bible, and with him being a Parish Clerk( which I believe was a keeper of the monies and such He may not have owned one because He actually may not have really been the one to lead the church in any way.( I believe Catholicism was very rampant at that time, any anyone who studies those types of things, only the clergy were usually the ones who had the bibles).

6: I have faced countless temptations, I also know that in this life I will face many more, The other day while listening to a radio broadcast i was in thought about how it is so true, Being saved through Christ does not make one perfect, or that no temptation will ever come at them. It is on GOD's Grace that HE will forgive us, when we truly repent.

7: Temptation is so relevant in today's world, What was once considered bad/sin is now good. What was once good and holy is considered bad. Look at the way we view sex, men, women, children, the lust of having the perfect Christmas by getting what they really want.....more toys, gadgets and gizmo's. Movies promote premarital sex and babies outside of marriage. Its really sad, and book are being censored and anything Godly or Holy is brought against you. Very scary and dark times!

8: I am not sure what a child thinks when given the temptation but I think the importance for John and even his sister to know whats out there is to better equip them with the power to stand strong to know that there are dangers that maynot be seen, to better teach them on how to handle the dangers of the world.

( am skipping questions)
11: I really had empathy for both John and his sister, his sister has much trust in her brother, not just in love but for the safety of her well being, and I think that when she was cut up from the thorns and her brother realized the pain he had caused her, and now quite possibly the damage in trust, he felt really bad. Even if just for a moment while they are young He truly repented and realized that there is a consequence for every choice we make ....good or bad. The damage done to his sister not only reflects in her outward looks but it will also affect the way she may or may not get a husband.

This book is so good, and i am once again glad to be doing this with you all. Very good question, and everyones take on them and the book are interesting!

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Monday, November 26, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by totustuus

My book is still on the way. I will let you know when I receive it and catch up with you guys. :-)

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by drewsfamilytx

I cannot imagine walking 2 miles with such a tangible consequence to MY sin! To blatantly and obviously hurt someone that I love dearly... It would be too much.

It makes me wonder what consequences for my sins are down the road for not only myself, but for my children. May God have mercy on them and let it stop with me.

Oh, and Amanda, I'm glad you kept reading! I know with Ishmael it took a full 8 chapters before I saw promise in the book. And then I couldn't put it down!

~Marshie

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007
Jacque Discusses The Hedge of Thorns Chapters 1-3

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard


I cannot say enough how much I underestimated this little book. When I said it was a little treasure, I really had no idea. I felt hope and a gentleness from the first page I read.

It is a shame that most books today are not written with the same honesty and the same conviction that they were when there was nothing to be made from them but a valuable life lesson. Of course, this is a true story from a journal, and most books are not written in that manner.

I was just drawn in by all of the words pictures the writer gave us to pull us into his life. I felt as though I was welcomed into his world, into his yard and his garden. The olde words drew me into the simpler way of life they obviously had.   I felt their their poverty in material things, though they were juxtaposed to their wealth of desire for God and His Word. That was so humbling and inspiring at the same time.

The tender importance of his little sister was the sweetest picture to me. I know this first-hand and see daily the gentleness of a big brother doting on his new baby sister, so the gentle and loving way this was written was fresh and precious to me. His anticipation 'to teach her to say her prayers' was so lovingly impatient, that it didn't seem like impatience at all.

 The Scripture that is woven into his story and his heart and his memory are told in such simplicity. It is a simplicity that I have a hard time weaving into situations in my own life. We make things way too complicated, I think. His parents and his teacher obviously made him very comfortable with and well-acquainted with the Word and its place in real life. For this family to sell a cow to obtain the Word. Wow.

In this very short first chapter, I was just breathing more relaxed and taken back to a simpler time, which in turn prepared me to move to Chapter 2, looking at this story through the eyes and heart of a quietness and child-likeness.

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I was just drawn in by all of the words pictures the writer gave us
to pull us into his life. I felt as though I was welcomed into his world,
into his yard and his garden.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I actually shuddered inside when I realized they were going to be going to school. I still do not know how I feel about my own reaction. Surely, I feel as though he and Bell should have been home, but I know times were different. I still cannot justify and reckon them walking two and a half miles both ways to be away from mom all day. I think that Mrs. Waring's endeavors to teach the Bible and educate the less fortunate is a generous thing, but I wonder if it would have been better served for her to travel to each home, teaching the parents as well and doing it for free. I do love the picture of them learning the alphabet with scripture so that the Word was well-planted in their hearts. And, then there is the hedge that they would not have passed twice daily had they been home. What do you think of that aspect? As a homeschool mom, did it rub you the wrong way? I know we excuse things many times for the furtherance of the Gospel, but is that ok to do?

   I felt myself completely taken back to my childhood as the hedge was described. I knew it was a figure of God's protective hedge in our lives, and it took me back to my sad childhood and the sad, distant little girl I have come to realize that I was. I pictured the hedge as HUGE. I pictured it as towering and dark and very full of thorns.  I could see myself walking along the hedge, in simpler times, a little girl; I painfully remembered being a young adult seeking after everything and anything to fill that "God-hole" in my life. It made me feel the sin I sought after and just to feel in my heart how God was there, trying to reach me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was it something that was just a strength
of character of leadership gone wrong?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I found myself wondering what was on the other side of the hedge. I wondered if they would actually follow through with their plan, and was saddened at the tactics John used to sway his little sister to join him. Even to the point that she mimicked his "we might find some apples under the trees" idea (p.25). It was sad to watch him be totally consumed by this temptation. Did you notice it was first his desire, and he swayed her, and then, in his own mind, it was 'their' desire to see what was beyond the hedge? I wonder if it ever was Bell's desire. One of her last statements before being put into the hedge was, "Brother, I am frightened. I think we had better not try to get through the hedge; perhaps our mother will be angry at us for it" (p.28)

I kept asking myself why. Why did going beyond the hedge become so consuming to him? It seemed as though he had so many other hedges - his mother and father, his teacher, even his little sister.  I understand human nature is to throw caution to the wind and assume "it will never happen to me", but I was perplexed at this total encompassing of his life. It made me wonder what John thought was so wonderful about the other side of the hedge. At the same time, it reminded me that boys do need to conquer. Was it something he needed to conquer? Was it something that was just a strength of character of leadership gone wrong? Will we see this rise up again and see the true strength of it in John's character?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'My brother, my brother,
the thorns, the thorns!'
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(pp.28-29) Why, after hearing little Bell whining "that the hedge was too awful to get through" did he continue to prod her, as she whined, even to the point he "in a fit of passion, I pushed her forward with all my strength"? What must he have felt when he heard her sweet little voice cry out  "in great agony,  'My brother, my brother, the thorns, the thorns!' "  That was so heart-wrenching to read. Her body went silent.  For a young boy of about 10 or so see her little face, bloodied, thorns stuck in her beautiful face. Her precious eyes.  Can you imaging how he was swept back to her child-like love to wipe his tears with her pinafore?

Carrying her home the 2 miles must have been a long agony for him. He said it  "seemed like endless torment." Pushing himself as he ran. Can you imagine all that was going through this little boys' mind? You know, one of those, "please let me take it back Lord" moments. Do you think he thought much of the hedge? I think he must have thought of nothing else but Bell. Maybe his parents, but only Bell's welfare and his sin.

 And, his mother- the sense that something terrible had happened. It tore my mother's heart to even imagine. What of her admonishment? What of her having him hold his poor baby sister? What did you think?

So, Father comes home. This gentle teacher. This man who he greatly respects. He did not rant and go on teaching and quoting Scripture he surely had many times told John before. He walked in and silently took his baby girl and sat in front of the fire. Oh that pangs to the heart. His poor precious Daddy-heart. Something he could not fix for his baby. 
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He "looked so sorrowful that it pierced my heart and hurt me more
 than if he had said a great deal to me."
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What do you think will happen next? Do you think John has learned from this hard lesson? Will it take more hard lessons to assuage his desire to see beyond the hedge or as he grows will this desire to cross hedges cause more suffering? I wonder if Bell is blind in that eye. How will this affect this sweet child, and how will that affect John? Will he or she become embittered?

Blessings!

Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool

 

 Sign up for the discussion of The Hedge of Thorns. You will be glad you did!

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DISCUSSION: Chapters 4-7: We will be reading chapters 4- 7 and discussing it next Wednesday. You may read it as you wish, but please don't include it in your discussion this week; I hate spoilers! :)

DISCUSSION: NOTE: Please feel free to post your discussion here in the comments section. Post it on your blog too, by all means, but it will be easier to discuss it right here on this blog. I will be getting a Mr. Linky for you to link any other posts or projects you may do, but the discussion will be great in the comments section! I am not sure if Amanda and I will continue to do 2 different posts, it just worked out better this way this time, but please post your discussion on either.  Thanks!

Happy Thanksgiving!


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Comments

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by JEANNIE78

I will get to my answers for the questions tomorow( yep thanksgiving treat.lol) Today was a big day for us. I read both your answers and will be visiting everyone after then too.

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Sunday, December 2, 2007 - Untitled Comment

Posted by drewsfamilytx

Surely he learned his lesson!

Older siblings (or younger even) have such influence over each other in both good and bad ways.

Belle not wanting to go through that hedge and yet John continuing to dwell what he knows is wrong reminds me of my relationship with my older sister. She is one of my best friends but there have been some... rough spots...

I'll never forget the time when we were little and walked to the local convenience store to buy treats for everyone. I was shocked when she actually stole a small 5 cent piece of chocolate! She insisted that I do the same. I told her it was wrong, I didn't want to steal and that we'd get in trouble. She called me a big baby and kept pushing me to take it.

So I did. She did not get caught but *I* did! I remember the fear that filled me when the employee scolded me and threatened to call my parents.

One of the things I learned then was to not always listen to someone's advice that goes against what I know to be true. While I haven't always been successful, I have become aware that even those close to you can push you to stray from the straight and narrow.

I hope that wasn't too much of a tangent. But what stands out to me the most is the struggle in one person's heart reaching out and tainting someone that is completely innocent (and I'm not referring to my innocence during my stint as a thief-- I still made that choice for myself).

As a mommy, it also makes me worry about the influence that my children have on each other (both good and bad). Certain ones have a propensity to be persuasive in the desires of their heart... even if it goes against the rules or just better judgement!

But I should not worry or fret, rather pray and lay it all at the feet of our blessed Lord.

Marshie

Edited by drewsfamilytx on Dec. 2, 2007 at 2:24 PM

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007
We Will Be Discussing Chapters 1-3 This Afternoon

Posted in The Hedge of Thorns by John Hatchard

I hope afternoon is ok with everyone.  We read Chapters 1-3 aloud yesterday afternoon. Amanda and I had already read it. I read it to our children. Caleb and Isaac did sit for about 20m before I got out the coloring books for them to sit quietly and listen and color in. We went over each chapter, and I read the Family Discussion Questions in between, whichever questions went with whichever chapter. Reading the 3 chapters made me realize that I had forgotten to bring up the whole idea of them going to school, etc. We discussed that too.

I have to tell you all that I forgot how tender Hannie is about some things... and she almost bawled. She is going to be 8 next month. As I read about Bell and the hedge, I could see the tears well up in her eyes. Eric is 10, and he had his face in his hands. He hesitantly looked up as I read the end parts more slowly.
I was so thrilled at what our children... especially Eric and Hannie, since I had him stand up and show everyone how tall John was at this time in the story... but, they all picked up on so much. It was a blessing to discuss it with them.
This is such a wonderful story for any age. Everyone wanted to know what was going on. We had such a good discussion. I cannot wait to get on with it!


Jeannie, I like your idea about Mr. Linky. Let me get it set up, and I think it is something we should do!

Talk to you all in a few hours!

Blessings!

Jacque
Seeking Rest in the Ancient Paths Homeschool


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